Brave Learning, Bold Leadership

Joanne Lockwood

Tags: Inclusive Workplaces, Challenging Bias., Brave Learning, Bold Leadership, Immersive Storytelling, Experiential Training, Allyship at Work, Workplace Flexibility, Real World Inclusion, Lived Experiences

Beyond Banter: Creating Safe Spaces for Bold Learning and Inclusive Innovation

Pippa O’Brien explores the impact of immersive storytelling in empowering everyday learners, dismantling workplace bias, and nurturing bold, inclusive leadership through trust, allyship, and authentic conversation.

In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Pippa O'Brien to explore the transformative ideas underpinning brave learning and bold leadership. Their discussion centres on how immersive storytelling and authentic conversations can break through traditional barriers to inclusion—especially for frontline teams and those who may have been underserved by conventional education. Joanne and Pippa share insights on creating psychologically safe spaces in the workplace, delving into the importance of trust, integrity, and tailored learning experiences that meet people where they are.

Pippa is a learning innovator and founder of Poda, known for her pioneering use of drama-based training to embed inclusive behaviours in organisations. Her expertise lies in turning everyday people into empowered learners through compelling real-world stories. Starting her career as a chef in a male-dominated industry, Pippa later found her calling in learning and development, driven by the guidance of a leader who believed in her potential. Over the years, she has designed impactful programmes for diverse workforces—including those with lower literacy levels—championing experiential, inclusive approaches. Her focus on genuine allyship and empowering everyday voices underscores her commitment to building organisational cultures rooted in belonging and psychological safety.

Joanne and Pippa reflect on real-life challenges such as bias, banter tolerance, and generational assumptions, demonstrating how roleplay and lived experience can generate ruminative learning. They question the status quo around workplace culture, flexibility, and leadership, advocating for strategies that embrace trust and nuanced feedback rather than rigid enforcement or performative change. Their conversation is enriched with anecdotes from training sessions, highlighting the difference authentic conversations can make, especially in engaging those typically resistant to inclusion training.

Listeners are left with a powerful takeaway: fostering belonging and inclusion requires safe, creative environments where people can share openly, challenge biases, and take ownership of their personal growth. With practical stories and real-world examples, this episode offers both reflection and action points for leaders, learners, and those invested in shaping inclusive workplaces—making it a compelling listen for anyone serious about driving positive change.

Published: 11.09.2025

Recorded: 31.03.2025 Episode Length

Duration: 0:59:36

Shownotes:

AI Extracts and Interpretations
app.castmagic.io The Inclusion Bites Podcast #175 Brave Learning, Bold Leadership
Other Links
seechangehappen.co.uk SEE Change Happen: The Inclusive Culture Experts
Inclusion Bites Podcast on YouTube

Clips and Timestamps

Innovative Learning Environments: “So what we designed was a programme where from the moment they arrived they were immersed into a real life drama, if you want to call it that.”
— Pippa O’Brien [00:06:58 → 00:07:09]

Viral Topic: Challenging Biases in Everyday Life: “the label is the bias and it can be positive or not so positive. But equally there’s something here around challenging those biases and really reminding people that actually as individuals and as human beings we’re always looking to confirm biases unless we actively are challenged on them.”
— Pippa O’Brien [00:08:29 → 00:08:47]

Viral Topic: Diversity, Allyship, and Executive Leadership: “that’s what they should be doing every single day, is being the ally for people in their organisation and making sure that their organisations reflect the communities and the organisations that they serve as well.”
— Pippa O’Brien [00:12:15 → 00:12:28]

Viral Topic: The Future of Remote Work
“I ran some focus groups for them and universally there was a demographic that was like, this is brilliant, I love this. I can get up, I can do two hours work, I get the kids packed, lunches in the bags, I get them to school, I come back, I do more.”
— Pippa O’Brien [00:13:52 → 00:14:07]

The Future of Work: “for me, it’s a real fundamental of flexibility, is that you trust people to do a great job, you explain the why and you’re the leader that they need in order to be the best that they can be. It’s quite simple in my opinion.”
— Pippa O’Brien [00:14:59 → 00:15:14]

Work-Life Balance Struggles: “It takes an incredible toll on your social life. And I think as a youngster I was then working five and a half day week and then I had Sunday afternoons and Mondays off and Monday was my college day. So that meant that actually you don’t have any time off at all, which is quite hard work, quite hard for a youngster.”
— Pippa O’Brien [00:37:45 → 00:38:05]

Viral Topic: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
“I haven’t actually got the A levels that I said that I had at the time.”
— Pippa O’Brien [00:40:51 → 00:40:52]

Viral Topic: Coping with Change in Business
“I think in terms of how we changed, lockdown was an enormous catalyst for change for us. And at the beginning, I think on the day one when it all kicked off and it, right, everything’s shut down, we’re only a small company and on that one day we had cancellations and most people took the trouble to phone us to say we’re going to have to cancel everything. We had £250,000 worth of cancellations in a day and we were, we were just like, okay, no, we understand, thanks very much and blah, blah, blah, looking forward to working with you when we can and all that good stuff. And I think we had to learn on a vertical learning curve.”
— Pippa O’Brien [00:43:24 → 00:44:52]

Viral Topic: Why Virtual Reality Training Didn’t Replace Real People
“It’s interesting where you offer people this great solution where they can access any time and it was ideal for shift workers or people who have got downtime in their day job and then they can just do a little. I’ll just do that module. So they want real people, whether that’s real people through a screen or real people face to face in the room.”
— Pippa O’Brien [00:46:11 → 00:46:33]

Wasting Your Life at Work: “So you’re going to completely burn the next seven years of your finite resources of life doing something that for a third of your week you clearly hate and if you clearly hate it, you’re not going to be doing the best job.”
— Pippa O’Brien [00:56:04 → 00:56:20]

Definition of Terms Used

What is Experiential Learning with Immersive Drama?

Definition: Experiential learning with immersive drama refers to an interactive approach to training and development where participants are actively involved in scenarios enacted by actors, mirroring real-life situations to provoke discussion, reflection, and behavioural change.
Relevance: This method is utilised to help individuals and organisations explore complex issues such as inclusion, bias, or allyship in a safe yet impactful environment. It bridges the gap between theoretical learning and genuine behavioural transformation, especially for audiences with diverse learning needs or varying literacy levels.
Examples: Attendees observe or participate in staged workplace scenarios involving discrimination or allyship, then discuss observed behaviours and alternative actions, fostering deeper understanding and engagement.
Related Terms: Role Play, Simulation Training, Real-world Storytelling, Action Learning
Common Misconceptions: Some believe experiential learning is just entertainment or “just acting”, but its primary aim is to embed new perspectives and trigger critical rumination which leads to tangible behavioural change.

What is Allyship (within Organisational Contexts)?

Definition: Allyship in organisational contexts involves individuals with relative privilege or influence actively supporting colleagues from marginalised or underrepresented groups, often by challenging bias and advocating for inclusion.
Relevance: An essential leadership behaviour, allyship promotes trust, psychological safety, and cultural change. Effectively modelled and practised, it supports an environment where all employees can thrive and be authentically themselves.
Examples: Speaking up when witnessing discriminatory language, mentoring team members from minority groups, or creating systems for anonymous reporting of microaggressions.
Related Terms: Advocacy, Sponsorship, Bystander Intervention, Anti-bias Training
Common Misconceptions: Allyship is often mistaken for passive support or sympathy. In practice, it involves consistent, tangible actions and the willingness to use one’s influence to create meaningful impact.

What is the “Whack-a-Mole” Culture?

Definition: The “Whack-a-Mole” culture describes a working environment where individuals’ ideas or suggestions are quickly dismissed or criticised, discouraging further contributions and stifling innovation.
Relevance: This metaphor highlights the disconnect that often exists between stated organisational values (such as innovation) and actual everyday behaviour, especially when leadership fails to encourage open dialogue or constructive debate.
Examples: An employee proposes a new approach in a meeting but is immediately told it “won’t work here”, leading them and others to withhold future ideas.
Related Terms: Psychological Safety, Organisational Culture, Fear of Failure, Employee Engagement
Common Misconceptions: Whack-a-Mole cultures are frequently misconstrued as efficient or decisive; in reality, they stifle creativity, decrease morale, and inhibit diverse thinking.

What is Confirmation Bias?

Definition: Confirmation bias is the cognitive tendency to favour, seek, or recall information that confirms one’s pre-existing beliefs or expectations, while disregarding evidence that challenges them.
Relevance: Understanding confirmation bias is critical when addressing inclusion and diversity, as it underpins many workplace prejudices and perpetuates stereotypes. It influences how individuals interpret colleagues’ behaviours and can drive microaggressions or exclusion.
Examples: Believing that only drivers of a certain car brand are rude, so only noticing examples that support that belief while ignoring contradictory instances.
Related Terms: Unconscious Bias, Selective Perception, Stereotyping, Cognitive Dissonance
Common Misconceptions: Many assume confirmation bias only affects others or is easily overcome; however, it is a universal, unconscious process requiring conscious challenge to mitigate.

What are Safe Words for Banter in Teams?

Definition: Safe words for banter are agreed-upon verbal cues used within teams to signal when “banter” (informal, joking interaction) has crossed a line for someone, enabling the interaction to stop immediately and without judgment.
Relevance: Establishing safe words fosters psychological safety, supports individual boundaries, and enables inclusive team dynamics without reliance on formal intervention or fear of escalation. It encourages self-regulation and accountability within groups.
Examples: Using phrases such as “mate”, “not cool”, or a pre-agreed term during team exchanges to indicate discomfort, after which all banter stops without question or ridicule.
Related Terms: Psychological Safety, Team Norms, Microaggressions, Call-in Culture, Call-out Culture
Common Misconceptions: Some believe the use of safe words makes workplace interaction overly formal or suppresses humour, when in fact it ensures banter remains convivial and respectful of all present.

FAQ: Key Terms and Concepts from “Brave Learning, Bold Leadership”

What is Experiential Learning with Immersive Drama?
Offering interactive, scenario-based learning through live drama to provoke engagement and behavioural change, particularly suited for inclusion and bias training.
What is Allyship (within Organisational Contexts)?
The active, ongoing effort by those with privilege to support, advocate for, and stand with underrepresented colleagues, going beyond simple empathy or passive support.
What is the “Whack-a-Mole” Culture?
A workplace dynamic where new or innovative ideas are repeatedly suppressed or dismissed, discouraging employee contribution and innovation.
What is Confirmation Bias?
The psychological inclination to notice and prioritise information that confirms existing beliefs, leading to distorted perceptions and reinforcing workplace stereotypes.
What are Safe Words for Banter in Teams?
Designated verbal cues agreed by team members to halt banter instantly, promoting respectful boundaries and fostering psychological safety within groups.